Norine Spurling

Norine Spurling is part of the Living Legacy Project at the Burchfield Penney Art Center. Click here to listen to her artist interview. 

Norine Spurling has employed a wide variety of media throughout her career to express her fascination with human relationships, everyday occurrences and, most prominently, memory and personal history. While watercolor is her primary focus, Spurling also experimented with charcoal, printmaking and photographic collage.

Spurling grew up in Bermuda, but when a local watercolorist recognized her artistic talent her parents sent her to study at Moore College of Art and Design in Philadelphia, PA. She continued to the Pennsylvania Academy of Art and Design and then to the University at Buffalo where she received her B.A. in 1969 and her M.F.A. in 1975. She taught drawing at UB for several years afterward.

In her drawings and paintings, Spurling focuses on capturing the essence of a subject at a single moment in time, regardless of whether the subject is a person or a carefully arranged still life. Inspired by female impressionists Mary Cassatt and Alice Neal, Spurling paints mainly women and children. She keeps a collection of old photographs, striving to emulate their transitory emotion in her work. Spurling’s figures often have a smudgy, ethereal appearance that emphasizes the impermanence of memory. Most recently, Spurling painted a series of watercolors of children swimming, reflecting upon her childhood in Bermuda.

“In my work I try to create a dream-like half remembered aura of the past, a suggestion of the hopes and dreams of these, the people of a bygone era,” she said.

Spurling has exhibited throughout Western New York and the United States. Her work is in the collections of the Burchfield Penney Art Center, the Roswell Park Cancer Institute and Blue Cross of Western New York, among others. Her paintings were also on display at the Art Dialogue Gallery and the new Meridian Western Gallery in Buffalo, NY. A past president of Buffalo Society of Artists, she has also served on the executive board of Niagara Frontier Watercolor Society, and has been an active member of several regional and local arts groups. Her work has been included in many national and local juried exhibitions. Awards include the Gold, Silver and Bronze from BSA, and Purchase Awards from the Erie Art Museum (Erie, PA) and the Minnesota Museum of Art (St. Paul, MN) [2]

[1] Buffalo Society of Artists: Norine Spurling https://www.buffalorising.com/2012/12/buffalo-society-of-artists-norine-spurling/

[2] Artists: Norine Spurling https://buffalosocietyofartists.com/?select=artists&data=norine_spurling

Norine Spurling is part of the Living Legacy Project at the Burchfield Penney Art Center. Click here to listen to her artist interview. 

Transcription below: 

LLP Artist: Norine Spurling
Interview date: July 2, 2015
Transcribed by: Jordan Anthony
Transcription date: June 19, 2020 

HG: This is the Living Legacy Project at the Burchfield Penney Art Center, and it is July 2, 2015. Today I am here with Norine Spurling, and we're sitting in the Boardroom at the Burchfield. Norine, I want to say thank you so much for coming in to be with me today to talk through this interview with the with the Living Legacy Project.

NS: I am very pleased that you asked me.

HG: So, Norine, the first question I ask is what inspired you to want to be an artist?

NS: I think I was born an artist. There was never a time that I wasn't. You know, I think I came that way. I know that when I was younger, I really believed that in an earlier life, that I was in France, with the Impressionists. I really, really felt that way. I've never, ever, ever thought of being anything but what I was…am, today.

HG: How did you start to actualize that for yourself as a young person?

NS: I was drawing from the beginning. My father used to bring pencils and paper home from work for me to draw on, because I was drawing all the time.

HG: When did you start to look at your love of art as something that you wanted to actively pursue throughout your adult life?

NS: Well, I went to watercolor classes. When I was a kid, all my friends, were learning to ride ponies, which I was very jealous of. But, you know, I had to go take my painting class with Miss Mae Middleton. And she, you know, I went to her house and she had a lovely house, a lovely studio outdoors and she painted flowers. So, you know, I had a very good basis that way. Yeah. And then I went to art school in Philadelphia, I went to Moore College of Art. One of the teachers that I had was George Sklar. He did the most wonderful drawings of animals with Chinese brush and ink. Like, you know, single stroke, and that's, you know what he was really teaching us, actually. So, you know, his work is fantastic.

HG: It sounds like though your family was supportive of you.

NS: They were very supportive. Yes, yes, I grew up in Bermuda. Oh, yes.

HG: What was that like?

NS: Well, I can't compare it with growing up anyplace else, you know, it was, it was a good place to be, I guess. You know, of course, the war came along so I, you know, a lot of time was spent thinking about that, you know, and praying that it would end and, and you know, being blacked out and having limited food because we, you know, we had to rely so much… I mean, Bermuda’s small, you have to rely a lot on imported stuff. So, yeah, it was. It was interesting.

HG: So, so you essentially moved stateside to go to school.

NS: Yeah, right. And then then then I got married and had kids and I taught in grade school a little bit, you know, and I didn't really get serious until I moved back to Buffalo… or to Buffalo.

HG: Buffalo but it was super great. You mentioned one of your professors at Moore who was influential to you.

NS: Yeah.

HG: What other artists or people in your life have been influential or mentors to you?

NS: Well, um, you know, I work I studied with Harvey Braverman at UB. And among the professor's there I really felt that he was the best as a professor, as a teacher, you know, you really, really expected respect of the work you were expected you to respect the room, equipment, because I took etching with him. I took figure drawing with him. But he also respected the students enough that he, he went to Europe for several weeks, during the semester, and just left us, you know, to work on our own, you know, supplied with a model and who, you know, was there every day. And then the models just set up the poses and we worked. And I don't think anybody skipped class because of it, you know.

HG: They wouldn't know if you're there for more than just expertise. You were there for yourself. Yeah.

NS: Yeah. That was that was really, really good. And it was really good, I think to be taking figure drawing and I took biology, Introduction to biology, because you got to round out your degree. And that was really good because I think I learned a lot about anatomy that way, you know, cutting up our frog's leg, you know, and separating all the muscles and really helped an understanding of the figure tremendously. So, I think that was a really good combination.

HG: At that point when you were going to school did you have children already?

NS: Oh, yes. Yeah.

HG: How many kids do you have?

NS: I have three. And when I went to UB, well, you know, I went to Moore before I got married, but when I was at UB, my youngest was is in kindergarten, first grade, second grade, or something like that. And of my two girls, one was in high school, and one in junior high.

HG: So, you put in some years.

NS: Oh, yeah. Those are the years when you're, you're the taxi. Yes.

HG: And I feel like by that point, as you are going back to school, you were very well rounded as an adult. I think that's an interesting sort of difference now with a modern, a lot of kids and myself included who go straight from high school, to college to graduate school, and then in the real world, you know, they've got a solid eight years before they're interacting with anything other than academia. And I think in some ways that that limits our understanding of the wider world while we're still in school, you know, whereas if you go on out and you have your life in other ways, and then you come back to school, I do feel that perhaps if I were to go back to school now though, I would in some ways be less malleable, you know, you know, than I was when I was younger and never worked a full time job and, you know, schooling since I was 5 to 25.

NS: Yeah, yeah.

HG: Do you find that affected you and your perspective of how you were carrying your art education at the time? Was this good to really get it back?

NS: You know, to really get into it. I mean, really immersed when you get back when you get to school. Whereas before that, I, you know, I knew people who did art and I painted of you know, a little painting classes, occasionally and I taught art classes in the grade school. My kids went to a private school, and I taught the art classes, which paid pay the tuition. That kind of thing.

HG: Very nice.

NS: So, that was you know, but that's very, in a way, very superficial, you know, you're thinking about holiday stuff. But I did portrait sketches…

HG: Little things like that without really developing your own vision.

NS: Right. You're not you're not into it. It's just a light kind of thing. Yeah. So, when you when you go to school, working on a grant or graduate program, you're into it much more thoroughly, and you spend a lot more time talking about art. And then you've got all that art history, all those art history classes, that you take, and there's more philosophy and thinking that way.

HG: More deconstruction of what you're doing rather than just doing it.

NS: Mm hmm. Yeah.

HG: How would you say your work? What it How did your work change after graduate through graduate school and beyond?

NS: I thought more seriously about it. And I worked more in series. And I was influenced, I think, by other artists, even though, you know, I had been in California when I was, you know, and they have good, good galleries out there. And, and I think I was more impressed with Wayne Thiebaud and Rauschenberg more when I hear from across the street, but Wayne Thiebaud…they had a lot of his work. I think he's a Californian artist.

HG:  I don't know his work deeply.

NS: I think I've got the right name of the right artist, because he did the figures with a…he did figures with like a blue outline around the body and, and kind of a blank negative space. And so, I think that that was where I really became involved with negative space.

HG: Negative space does feature prominently in too much of your work.

NS: Yeah, I started exploring that. So, that became very important. And on the figure because he was… he worked with a figure and still life. And he did the little cakes. Think so. Yeah.

HG: I cannot speak to that.

NS: I'm sure I've got the right name. Yes. Which is another, you know, simple everyday, still life. And then after a while we had a for just a year, we had a professor when I was finishing up my, my first part of the graduate degree, or did no, I guess I did finish up the BFA first. In any case he came from California, and he was really into, I mean, still life that he put were empty coffee cans, those kinds of things, you know, simplify them, simplify them. And I think one of the things that I really remember is because of that, you know, the simple, everyday objects and looking at patterns simplifying that way. Yeah, so that was very good. Good education. Yeah.

HG: Once you moved to Buffalo…

NS: That was in Buffalo.

HG: That was, that was, I'm sorry. That was, yeah. Was that when you were doing your BFA or your MFA?

NS: I was I was doing BFA and the MFA in Buffalo.

HG: Okay. Well, then let me rephrase that question. What was it about Rauschenberg that influenced your work?

NS: It was, it was the content. Finding out…getting the poetry in his work, you know, that I, you know, at first, she does this stuff. But then you realize, and I think somebody had written a book, or maybe it was just an article about his work and about what was in there. How, you know you could put it all together and of course that was the result was that poem. You know, I mean later when I was writing because that stayed with me it was one of my favorites.

HG: The poem Norine is referring to is called “Ace”.

NS: It’s one called “Ace”.

HG: And we'll be, we'll be posting that on Norine’s profile page on the Burchfield website. Could you talk about your art and what you create, and why you create it? That's the big one.

NS: That is that is very big.

HG: And you can talk about it, you know, speak about some of your different series, maybe that you've worked on and maybe some different themes.

NS: Well, okay, I realized when I looked back at some because I've done some larger series that were like 10 or something. I did a group of knots, or I called them…um…those headdresses…turbans! I did a series of turbans. And I just use fabric that I tied in different ways and hung up and drew them in graphite. And they were, you know, they're pretty large. And afterwards, I realized, you know, this was when, when there was so much unrest in the Middle East, and I realized afterwards, that was why I did them. I didn't, I set out to do this wrapped fabric, but that's what they really were.

HG: That's really fascinating, and I think that's a really honest description. You know, in some ways I think we glorify the artists where they have these this concept, this idea that artists, artists have it all figured out, they know exactly what they're doing as they're doing it, which is totally different from the rest of us in our everyday lives. We're oftentimes act first, and then we analyze our actions and say, “Oh, maybe this is what was affecting me at that time that I reacted poorly, or I did this beautiful thing,” you know?

NS: Yeah.

HG: And we don't know until hindsight. But I think that's a really nice description of creation, and only then having the space to analyze what it was you had created.

NS: Yeah, yeah, and another series that I did, I had been going on cruises with a dance group because I was doing international folk dance.

HG: And just one more thing to do and, the kids are in high school, the kids are in college, right?

NS: No, I did that after.

HG: Oh, yeah, I was trying…

NS: When I was going to UB or, or later that I was that I was going on these cruises with these and dancing you know, everywhere. And of course, on a cruise ship, you have a swimming pool. And I would take pictures of people swimming in swimming pools. And so then later, I had these pictures and so I was thinking in terms of… because I've been doing some still life, too always in black and white, and I started thinking about the color coming through, you know, in black and white and I was doing some still life kinds of things and always caught gave them a color name. You know, “Red” or, you know, even though there was no color, then I did the, the drawings of the swimmers, large drawings in combination charcoal and, and graphite and my thinking was that I was creating a sense of the color in black and white. And that was really what I put in my statement that went with them. So, I did a lot of them. And then unfortunately, I had shown them on a few places but not a lot. And I had them stored in the basement and we had that October storm. Yes, a lot of them went swimming.

HG: Ohhhhh! Aha..

NS: A lot, you know, because…

HG: I didn’t mean to laugh; it was just very ironic.

NS: Yes, they went swimming. So, I have four that I was able to because they were in an exhibit at the Anderson, actually. So, they were framed in an exhibit. And to that only got the bottom edge of the paper wet so I can, you know, trim down…

HG: Now, I feel like I saw a work by you that was in The Barge.

NS: I had a piece in The Barge.

HG: Right and it's swimmers as well but that was in color.

NS: Yes, because that's what I did later. I thought about those black and white ones and I had taken pictures, actually before I threw them out, I had my grandson come over and we picked them up one at a time and I took photographs again of them so I have a I have them as they were, and I have pictures of them with the water damage on the bottom. They're all on the footpath. So, we took the frames apart pieces away but… So, where was I talking? So uh yeah, so then I was inspired to I started working with the watercolor actually see you go through all these things, the hand to quit drawing, because my I had this wrist problem, you know, bone on bone, you know, I couldn't draw because of my thumb. And so, I took up monoprinting because you know, you’re rolling ink on, and you're not using that tendon. Because I had surgery but that, you know, surgery isn't overnight. So, I did a lot of monotype and then from there I started working with colors working with a watercolor, because I had, you know, that was my childhood thing. And so, then I thought I'll do the do the drawings. Again, over again with watercolor.

HG: And how did you like it the second time around?  

NS: It's different. Yeah. Yeah. As I still have the photographs to work from, you know?

HG: What's that saying? “You can never stand in the same river twice. You can ever swim in the same river twice?”

NS: Yes.

HG: So, what are some other series that you've worked on throughout your career? Just trying to get an overview. You know, when I think about who's listening to these interviews, sometimes I think about a focused art historian who's thinking about it. Sometimes I think about someone who's just interested in Western New York art and maybe saw a piece by you that they liked and want to learn more about you. Sometimes, maybe somebody who's never heard of you, you know, but we have these resources now. So that's why I like to ask big broad questions.

NS: Yeah, well, in the beginning, one of the earlier series that I did where were large charcoal and graphite drawings from old photographs. Somebody had given me some glass plate negatives. From them, and I did a lot of large drawings. So, I and I have very few of them. I sold them all, but of course not for big money. And there it is: drawing don’t sell like oil paintings for the same price. So anyway, I did a lot of those. I know a lot of people have them in their collections. So, I have a couple of them on the CD. I started with that on there. And, of course, the drawing that is downstairs in the grid pattern exhibition, if that kind of came, you know, was more, maybe one of the later ones but because I had some other…I worked a lot with the old glass negative ones. And then somebody gave me a group of photographs that they picked up in an auction. Can you imagine? Family photographs? Yeah, no, I know. So anyway, that that went down there.

HG: Yeah, that's a huge testament to somebody else's life that you never even knew. I knew nothing about. There was nothing, no names nothing. I bought this. I spent a semester I spent a semester studying in Sienna, Italy. I was an undergrad I did my undergrad at Buffalo State. I was after I went to the Sienna program. I went I didn't in the program, but I went there to visit... But after that semester, I was traveling with my best friend who was in the program with me. And we went to Paris and in Paris, and in Montmartre, I bought this photo album at a flea market for an insane amount of money, but I couldn't turn it down as this photo album of this Greek family's trip to India. And it was in I believe 1915 and they were very wealthy. And so, the wife had a little camera. And just seeing their documentation of everywhere that they went and that sort of thing and feeling like I'd become the custodian for somebody else's history, as you know, wanting to protect it and wanting to keep it together and care for it in these ways. It feels like a lot of responsibility, but at the same time, you know, who are you responsible to?

NS: Well, on top of that, the other thing of course is going there with them, then, yes.

HG: Sometimes you don't even know their names, but you come to care for them so much. Yeah.

NS: And you do experience that. Yeah. That's really. Yeah. When I was in the course I'm jumping around here. When I was in Chicago. I went to that museum. I don't remember the name of that. It's… the only work they show are people who never had any training. Yeah, naive work. But this person has, on Facebook, they had published pictures, and I can't remember what whether they were themselves. Yeah, they were all pictures from vacations. And so, I mean, they had done them on Facebook and then they then they were enlarged. So, the whole gallery were these big photographs, you know, have these two sitting on the deck sitting by the pool. Like, it was very strange and wonderful, really, you know, because they weren't anybody that you would know and I'm not sure that anybody knew who they were, anyway. That’s what made it an interesting exhibit, and it's a level of reconnecting like that.

HG: The beautiful thing about this, what the internet age and social media made possible is the amount of stimuli that we're exposed to and that we can then delve into is just dramatic. Absolutely dramatic.

NS: Yeah. Well, it's wonderful that you can see other people's work, and some of the photographs

????? (28:16) or whatever it is. I think they run... I think what they do is they have competitions, mostly in photography. But it's really fascinating to look at the work that are being considered, you know, and I think people vote on… I don't know, I don't know, I just looked at the pictures if you don't want to, like, we're really like when I copy it, and if they if they won't let you copy it, I take a picture of it!

HG: Do you know, like Richard Prince's work and everything that's been going on with him recently. Richard Prince is a photographer. Yeah, I've been working in appropriation right now. Right. And so, he would take screenshots of people's Instagram accounts, which is just like an image sharing, and then blow those up and then sell them for $90,000. Yeah, yes. Right. And he would change it in just like the subtlest little way he would, you know, take a screenshot and then add an extra line of text or something like that. And it's now a new thing. And now it's something he created. And I think conceptually, it's very, very fascinating. But I think it's even funnier is… so there's a there's a sort of…what would you call the suicide girls? There's this group of women who essentially do saucy pinup photography, but they're very 21st century all tattooed, and you know, that sort of thing, just very alternative. And they have a huge following and there's hundreds of these girls around the country. They all do their own photos and stuff like that. So, I think Richard Prince took some of the suicide girls’ images and use them as part of his series of Instagram shots that he's been selling for $90,000. So, the suicide girls are… no, no, no, no, no, no, they took screen prints of his installation shots, and then added another line of text and then selling that. They're selling them for $90. You know, so this is so it's kind of like, how far can this game go? And how many different layers of this onion are there? And I thought that was not they didn't sue them. They just beat them.

NS: And I didn't know if they beat him at his own game, but he was being sued by an actor and somebody that he had appropriated a photograph of. So right. Yeah, yes.

HG: Yeah. And I can see both sides of those. Oh, yeah.

NS: No. Well, my feeling, though, is why would you put a new picture of yourself on anything that's digital that people can get all that.

HG: Because once you get to care and you put it out there, you can't take it back. Right. So long as you know that like that's very, you know...especially from a Feminist perspective, it can be very freeing.

NS: You can’t sue anybody for using it. I just had a show it at the at the River gallery, and they're all they're all children, did you see an invitation? So, they're all children's paintings, mine are. And a lot, well, some of those I based on people's photographs that they put on Facebook. And I took it, and painted from it.

HG: And I think that's, I think that's a valid thing to…

NS: I let the person know sometimes.

HG: What some of the differences, too, are questions about that with photo disclosures, if you're actually photographing real people out in the world, and then, you know, doing commercial photography with that, but with what you're doing, you know that that's not the actual child who is on Facebook anymore. You know, that's…

NS: Actually, that was a photograph, but, you know, but the ones that were done from any of the ones that that I did appropriate the image from Facebook, but you know, they're not there anymore. You know, they're not necessarily even good photographs. So… you know, I like that image. A lot had to be… I certainly had to put a lot into it, because you're not getting a nice clear image. So, you've got to create. Yes.

HG: Is there anything else you'd like to say about what you create why you create it? I think we got a lot.

NS: Yeah, it's been really interesting. Yeah. I've been doing this and it’s really neat to just to talk because how often do you get to do that, you know?

HG: And I think that's one of the benefits of these interviews, too, is again, what I was saying about, you know, like your Turban series, or whatever that was. I know some artists that I've interviewed have found the opportunity to reflect upon themselves really helpful. For me, I know that I'm an extrovert and I know that I'm somebody who processes things externally, you know, I process things through conversations rather than, like, working through it in a room by myself. And so, it totally resonates with me when somebody's like, “Oh, this is making me look at it differently.”

NS: This is internal. Yeah, yeah.

HG: Norine…

NS: Russel Ram did the cover, by the way

HG: Really?

NS: Yes.

HG: Norine is holding up a copy of her book of poems, which is published by the Buffalo Arts Publishing. That's awesome, with a with a collage work by Russell Ram on the cover. Wonderful. And I think in some ways you even touched on my next question, which is talking about the totality of your body of work and some of the different themes that have emerged. But are there any other themes that you've seen in your work? You know, you do seem to do images of figural work now quite often, right at this point. Maybe not when you're doing monoprinting, but maybe on an amount of prints…

NS: I was working with a figure then, too. Yes. You know, the old photographs have been a very large part of what I’ve done. Yeah.

HG: Did you ever have a focus away from the figure at any point in your career?

NS: Only still life. Only when…and I think even when I've done still life, I've always… there is like a little story in the back of my mind going with it, you know. So, if it’s tea canisters or something, you know, I'm thinking about that, or I'm thinking about the color relationship. Or I did a lot of pastels still live for a while where I just gathered, I'd say, “Okay, today I'm doing blue,” you know, like go around the house, pick up everything blue and then organize them. But generally, there would be something in there that had had some story for me, so…

HG: So, very personal narrative.

NS: Yeah, they were. Yeah.

HG: So overall what would you say—and not that this is any measure of worth or quality of your series—but what are some of the series that have been the most well received by the community? Which works did you sell most of?

NS: Really, I would really say those early large figures from the old photographs.

HG: And what I like about your work… what I noticed in the, the Swimmers part deux, you know, the second Swimmer series, is that there is a level of abstraction to your work there is like, maybe not in all of your work, but certainly in that one piece that was in The Barge. At first you don't know what you're looking at, you know, at first you just have this like hazy overview and you kind of have to dig into it. You have to stand there, and you have to try and analyze what this could be, and then you start to see it. Also, I feel badly if there's anyone who has listened to many of these interviews because I come back to the same point in a lot of those interviews. So, the point I come back to is: Is knowing the artist and the title of the work helpful or harmful with appreciating and understanding of painting? And sometimes it's helpful and sometimes it's harmful, you know, which I think is true of everything. But with your work, knowing your title helped me find the lens to view your work with it. Because it was sort of this misty, sort of what's you know “What's going on here?” but then once I knew that it was relating to swimming, I'm like, “Oh, yes, I see that, you know, I see it!” And that and that made me really excited. Like I discovered something. Yeah, you know, and so certainly you're there were a lot of pieces in The Barge. And I don't remember all of them, but your work is one that really stuck out to me. And I was and I really enjoyed that piece a great deal. So, I guess although it was very convoluted, long way of saying like, I feel like you do play with abstractions.

NS: But I can't do abstraction. Yeah. I am fascinated with, “How do you do abstractions?” I always look at abstract art. And look at it a long time. You know, when I get the catalogs from the watercolor shows, there's always maybe two or three abstract works with look, you know, and there are some people who work abstractly that I really like their work, but I don't know why. And I can't do that. You know, it's just too much on the surface? I don't know.

HG: Or if there is deeper meaning… I think with abstract works, you need the title more if there is a deeper meaning, right, because it's so subjective, so subjective, and that's beautiful, that's powerful, that it can mean anything to anyone and maybe there is a deep meaning that led to those actions. And I think maybe that I think uncontrolled actions in some ways are more important with abstract painting, you know, you just have to be like, really in your body, and really comfortable with all the ways your body expresses. Because there is no line to follow, it’s just you. That can be empowering or debilitating. But, yeah, I know that even though our work is not abstract, I can see ways that you play with shapes of the form, and abstractions in that way.

NS: Oh, yes. Yeah. And the importance of negative space; most of the time that is a real part of my work, and that is abstract.

HG: Yes, it is.

NS: You know, you can't just put it anywhere.

HG: Now, it's abstract, but it's also intentional. You know, I think a lot of people…especially a lot of people who maybe don't have a background in the arts don't have the visual literacy… I think visual literacy is an important component of being able to feel that art speaks to you, you know, getting over your own biases. But a lot of times people say, “Well, my kid could do that.” Okay, answer is, “Well, sure. Maybe your kid could, but your kid didn’t.” Yeah. And I think that it I mean, that's a totally demeaning comment. But it totally takes away the agency of the artist, for their own intentionality, you know, for why you use negative space, the way you use and somebody's sort of discrediting all of the effort. Just being just being aware of all the effort it took you to compose the negative space

NS: Yeah. Well, it's like that, that whole answer when people say, "Well, how long did it take you to do that?” Yes. All my life!

HG: Yes. That's a very good answer. Good answer to that. I think some of the challenges with questions like those, like, “how long did it take you to do that?” And the, the unspoken thing is, how much is your time worth? You know that unspoken side of it: “how many hours did you spend on that? How does that translate into what you're asking for the piece?” And I see those things as the questions that capitalism breeds, you know, so and I think that that's a big challenge for some artists is, you know, especially in art school, you're taught how to harness your technique and how to create. But there's this disconnect in many places between that and how you have to work the capitalist systems to try to survive on your art if that is your goal and intention, you know?

NS: Yeah.

HG: Because, you know, within our societal structures, create creative talents are not valued the same way as talents that create more money.

NS: Yeah. Right.

HG: And I think that that is a problem with the way we use capitalism. You know, I'm talking Big C “Capitalism”, not little c “capitalism”. Yeah. And I think that artists and musicians and creative folk who don't fit into any box are the ones who kind of get lost in the wake, sometimes.

NS: Well, yes. And we're seeing a lot of that with the music industry now.

HG: Yes, we are.

NS: A lot and it's…

HG: But there's also been sort of the counter reactions like, you know, the indie music scene is indie stands short for independent, but it's musicians who, from a young age, saw how record companies take a huge cut. And they're like, “well, that's not what we want. So, we're going to create our own structures. And we're going to create our own record labels to sell our records on. We're going to do it ourselves.” And also, within the visual arts, in the era of the internet. There's this really cool website that, actually, I'll send you a link to later, called ArtistADay.com. And it's really just a website where every day of the week, 365 days a year, they promote a different artist, and artists submit their materials to it for review, and so it is curated in that way. And but I do see similarities between that and what we're doing here because it's just access. Just, “Hey, did you know about this?”

NS: Yeah.

HG: And then it's up to you to do your own exploration. Right. Yeah. You know, I could see you being fascinated by this. It's incredible. It's been up for a few years now, so, now that's like, you know, 900 or more than 1000 artists have a biography page for every day.

NS: Yeah.

HG: So, I think we've touched on a lot of these things. But the next question generally ask is about your creative process. But I think you've kind of, you know, talked about this a little bit in your work and your still lifes, in the way you use negative space, but is there more that you'd like to say about that?

NS: You know, I can't think of anything more. No.

HG: How are you enjoying those watercolor pencils? How's that changing the way you're working?

NS: Um, well see, I just, I just I went to Texas, for the cold weather. I was just there for two months and I took the watercolor pencils with me. And I played around a lot with them there. And then after I came back, I did two pieces for the show at Meibohm because, you know, I came back! You know, I promised that I would do something for this, and I've been out there taking a picture. So, I had this photograph of the, one of the shelters. You know, there's so charming you know, they have a feeling of poetry about them. So, I did two ways of working with the with the pencil. So, I have two pieces in that show, and I mean they're small. But it was good because it really made me work with the pencils and really get into it. And so, I've been working somewhat, and then lately I started some watercolors. I can I did some computer work on a photo on a couple photographs. I did a painting for them, but not finished, nothing finished it up. And then I pulled out the pencil and some of the things I had done before working on those so but the other day I did a face and I added a lot of black with the black pencil and then water all over the whole thing. I did a couple more like that, but their energy I mean, those are like, you know, it’s quick, but you're working a lot when you do it. Yeah, and of course, what you started with is not necessarily anywhere the same as it as when it ends up, but it's pretty neat. So, I'm drawn to do that. There is a big difference between saying “I'm going to do a watercolor,” and “I'm going to look for something,” and you know, and then I'm going to set it up, enlarge it. Or this other thing, which is more exciting.

HG: It seems less controlled in some ways. Oh yeah, you can have you can have your ways of exerting control, but you have to understand where you don't have control and kind of maybe control your ability to not have control. Yeah, rather than actually controlling. Yeah, that is really cool. Yeah. And very exciting.

NS: It is. I've got, I really got to pursue it.

HG: Well as those works… as you reach your stride with that, please send us some digital images of those works and information about them. And we can put those on our website as well, because I think what would be really nice, is it what's nice about what we offer with this Living Legacy Project is the ability to show different series of your work, the ability to show, you know, 10 years of your production through 10 images.

NS: Yeah, you know, well, if you look at the list of what I put on the CD, I really kind of put took two for me.

HG: Wonderful. That's, that's perfect. Oh, you're good. You're so on top of it. That's really refreshing with me too. It's very refreshing for me.

NS: It was it was a bit of work, you know, but sometimes those kinds of things are fun. You know, it took me to about two years, this together, but the poetry because I was 10 years writing poems, but actually, you know, typing them up and making any small changes and then organizing them, curating, going through them. Yes. The curating was about two years and then getting them printed, which didn't doesn't take long. You know, it's really quick. And I really like the cover.

HG: I love the cover. Yeah. It’s beautiful. Yeah. Now, while you were working on the poetry, you were still working on paintings.

NS: Yes, it's not easy though. You know, find that the creative line. Like, when I had small kids, I sewed clothes, you know, for the for the girls. I couldn't do anything else was creative, and it's not a big creation.

HG: But I think that also the distinction between the fine arts and the crafts, for example, is very arbitrary. And I think it's very external. It's a bunch of, you know, art critics elevating some things and talking down others, you know, and I think that's bogus.

NS: It’s like what happened with photography. Yes, yes. And I remember when those students from upstate, went over to you it over to the to the art gallery, and they had they had a photo experience. They made little prints. And they stuck them on places. All in the gallery. Yes, that's what you have. Because they didn't exhibit photography. So, those guys over here were very…the guys… who were they? I'm trying to think of their names.

HG: I don't know. What’s even funnier is that that was a time where it still took a lot of physical effort to produce a print. You know, it was, I mean, it was really labor intensive.

NS: Photography is just pshh.

HG: Yes, but now you know, with digital printing—and certainly I'm not speaking lightly about the amount of work it takes—but, you know, digital processing is very a different thing than manual processing. Oh, man. And finally, we are at this place where photography is respected for what it is. But it's actually gotten easier to make a photograph than it used to be when it was out of the canon. But that kind of gets back to how I think sometimes, the way some people elevate something is in contrast to saying other things. It's not. You know, instead of saying, “these can both be good for various different reasons,” you have to talk one up and talk one down. And I think that I've come to think about this a lot more because of the role of craft art here at the museum and the role of Sylvia Rosen. And you know, who really came to Buffalo as a craft artist in the mid-20th century at a time when it was not respected at all. I know. And it was very much through her support and her drive that we that the Burchfield has been involved in helping to change the way people view this works. And so even when I say craft art, I'm not saying it in a derogatory way that is meant as less than fine art. I think that it is absolutely fine art in the same way photography is, but also in the same way the creation of a dress can be. You know, I think that having more outlets to respect and celebrate people's creative impulses, whatever that is, you know, I think is necessary. And Sunday painters might be Sunday painters for a reason, you know, Sunday painters or Sunday painters because they have to have a 9am-5pm, you know, to support themselves within this societal structure. You know, I'm sure Sunday painters would spend the other six days painting if they didn't have to work. Yeah, you know, and I think that's, anyway… I'm rambling. This is your interview. I just I do this sometimes. I definitely ramble.

NS: We have spoken about some things that are very interesting. They’re very interesting rambles. Yes.

HG: That makes me really happy. And that's, it's a beautiful thing about working in an Arts Museum that is so focused on the people who live in my neighborhoods, you know? It allows us to have a much stronger connection as community. And that is really important to me. And it's, it's, you know, incredible to me that I'm able to have these conversations with you. And even Harvey's a great example, we interviewed Harvey two years ago for the Living Legacy Project. And at the same time, he's also just somebody I see in my daily life here at the museum. Not every day, but he comes in quite often. And it removes that sort of like ivory tower of the artist, and I think maybe for artists, it also removes the ivory tower of the museum, you know, and kind of brings us both down on this level. Where we can acknowledge that we're all humans. Yeah, yes.

NS: Yeah, you meet young people, someone will say that you know something about having a show, or “come to a show”, well, “do I have to get dressed up?” On the other hand, I can remember way back, of course, always in the 20th century when we used to have an opening across with the Patteran Society, there we all wore long skirts to an opening! Now I wear jeans.

HG: Well, it also depends on where you are within the system. You know, you've arrived! You can wear whatever you want, you know, but when I was an undergrad when I was 19, I first became connected with the Burchfield because I loved volunteering at their openings because me and all my girlfriends would get dressed up. And really everybody got dressed up. Yeah. Certainly, yeah, now I'm a bit more established, and I go to openings in jeans as well. And it just comes to do with how you're carrying the experience. So, you know, but that's a really, really lovely thing. And not to take it on a side road a little bit, but can you talk a little bit about your experience with the Patteran Society?

You know, it's hard really to remember a whole lot because…I did get accepted…because it seemed like, at the time, if we felt like the bit, the BSA was, you know, one of the really good, good organizations to belong to, but the Patteran was a little bit better. You know, there was that feeling and there were Patteran people that didn't care to be a member of BSA, you know, because they were there. But then, then I did become a member and then I was President the last year I was the one who said, “we are giving up.” The problem was that this town didn't really have the places for exhibiting group exhibits. And we were having an MBA right before that. During those years, we had been able to have… well… the first year that I was member of the Buffalo Society, we had a show at the at the Albright. But then, we couldn't, you know, be there anymore. But we had shows at the Burchfield, like, alternate years with them and they would allow Patteran one year, and Buffalo Society the next year, which was fine. Yeah. But then, you know, then Tony, like, you know, I think that was after Tony was there. And he started sort of like, “Well, you know, I'm in charge. I'm in charge.” So, then it was difficult. So then then he said, we just can't, you know, we can't have both organizations. So, you know, we just can't do that. Well, that's logical. I mean, I could see the logic behind that. The Albright Knox was developing from being what it was to being kind of a national museum. The Burchfield was also developing into something else. So that that meant that that long relationship wasn't working anymore, and to find places big enough to show a group was very difficult. It's okay now because there are more places somehow with the space to work it out, but we tried doing a lot of little shows, because of the little places. I designed that invitation, which I was very pleased to see that in the drawer. Yeah. But it didn't go over that well it got just one review thing and, you know, I really because it was scattered like that it wasn’t good. Yeah. And so, you know, I mean the Board talked about it a lot we decided there just wasn't any point in keeping going. People weren't in the membership, weren't being supportive. That wasn’t space available. So, the smart thing to do was fold up.

HG: Yeah. But it is better to do it on your terms than not, I suppose. What year did the Patteran Society close down?

NS: I don't know.

HG: I know it is downstairs. So, I should probably just go down and look. Yes, it was the mid-80s or…

NS: I don't know anymore. Yeah, it's was.

HG: Anyone who's interested can look up the exhibition the Patteran Society, on the Burchfield Penney's website and get the information that I don't have right now.

NS: And it's on the Burchfield site. Yes, yes.

HG: Well, but this ties nicely into the next question. So, these last questions that I asked, are more about community building and promoting oneself as an artist within a community and then beyond that community as well, because one of the ideal listeners that I imagine is somebody who is younger. Somebody who's starting to really pursue a career in the arts and trying to figure out the ropes. And there's all sorts of different ropes, you know, but I found that knowing what other people did, can sometimes help jog ideas for oneself. And at the same time, also, you know, I was saying at the beginning that this whole project grew out of the understanding that we can offer shows to everyone at the Burchfield Penney. So, starting to say, “Okay, well, what else can you offer.” So, this helps us gather information as well about what we can offer that artists need in the community. So, the next question I ask is, what have you done personally to forward your career in the arts? You know, the Patteran Society I see as part of that, but, you know, how did you sort of as you were going through, you be getting your BFA and your MFA? And then going outwards? What are some of the things you had to do?

NS: I did, that I didn't have a plan, or anything like that. I've always like being a part of a group, you know, and so and then, and then I find that when I'm in a group, I can't just be in a group. I have to work in that group. And then I have to be helping to make the group work so with the Buffalo Society, I served on every single one of the offices.

HG: Wow. All the way. Were you President?

NS: Yeah. I was President, I got to do everything. And the job that I did the longest was Treasurer.

HG: It's a very important job.

NS: And it's a lot different now. I wouldn't be able to do it now. Not with the with the computer stuff or all that. But then it was just the old ledger.

HG: That's funny. We probably have your handwriting in the archive.

NS: Oh, yes. We have the BSA archives here. That's right.

HG: Yep. Yes, yes. I want to end with the Patteran as well. You kind of took on a similar…

NS: Yes, yes. Yes. I got on the Board and I don't remember really how long or anything, I just became the President probably because nobody else would do it. And nobody else cared enough and that's, you know, it just had lost energy. Smart thing is to put it to bed.

HG: That resonates with me a lot. So, I live in a cooperative house in the city, I become one of our two house treasures because nobody else would do it. You know, I'm one of those people who…I have myself together, you know, I'm kind of on top of a lot of things I need to be doing. So, I end up taking more responsibilities. It does take consistent energy and intentionality, by the people I live with and maybe the people you worked with, you know, these arts organizations to know that these things are not self-sustaining, you know, You got to put a lot of energy into it.

NS: Yep. You know, everybody has to do the job. And the years with a volunteer organization like that... I remember with the Buffalo Society, there was one year when the President resigned the Vice President said “Oh, I don't want to do that job. He resigned!” And then the treasurer never came to a meeting! You know, it was like, you know, so there yeah just four or five people just pulling it through. But we survived. Yeah. Way back way back in the Women's Movement we had that big, big women's thing here and I was involved with it.

HG: Really?

NS: Yes.

HG: Phenomenal. We're actually starting to work on an exhibition of women artists in the collection who are underrepresented as well. In the next few years, yeah, I just heard about it for the first time the other day, but I think it's still in development. That's really exciting. So, can you talk a little bit about your involvement with the women's movement in Buffalo and 60s? I mean, that was a volatile time.

NS: Yeah, I don't know. I was just involved. You know, I wasn't in a leadership situation. I just was, you know, I just went, I went to meetings, and I did whatever. It was a lot less organized. You know, and I think Shirley Kassman was really the, you know, the core of the whole thing.

HG: Well, so, you know, from a from a 28 year old woman in 2015, thank you so much for everything you were participating in. So, getting back to concepts of community and things like that, throughout your career, what have been, maybe continued to be, some of your needs that the larger community can provide you with? What do you need as an artist to thrive in Buffalo?

NS: It's just the, the opportunity, I think, to exhibit my work really, because what else am I going to do with it? You know, I mean, and I don't work to sell, because I feel if I did, it would be a whole different bag of worms. So, I just do. Which means that I have to have someplace to show it.

HG: Yeah. And there certainly are more galleries than there had been maybe for the past few years.

NS: A whole lot more, yes. They don't all last, unfortunately. Largely because of the cost. It's ridiculous because if you open a gallery, the electricity, the phone, everything is charged to a different rate than it is for the person living in a house. It's higher. So, that makes it harder.

HG: Yeah. Even when rent is affordable, it still is, especially as rent prices increase in this region.

NS: Yeah, it's really so, we're glad we have the ones we do. And, and opening a lot of those places down around the waterfront is great, but it's been difficult driving down there and parking. Yeah. My grandson who is teaching in high school that's down by the gallon center of the city. He said the way to go to the waterfront is to take is to park in one of the parking lots and take the subway the rest of the way.

HG: I like I live close enough. I don't have a car. So unfortunately, a lot of those challenges are foreign to me. But yeah, take this away and just take it right down and you just walk.

NS: Yeah. So, I didn't know. He told me.

HG: Yeah, that's what grandsons are for. Yeah, it's true. With my grandmother, I'm like, “No, Gram, you gotta do it this way. You don't know about that?” What about exhibiting outside of Buffalo? Have you ever done that?

NS: Oh, yeah, well, I used to be very successful at getting into national shows. But there were a lot of print and drawing shows then, and there aren't anymore. So that was, you know, I felt like I got into 90% of the ones that I enter. Now, it's a lot harder because there aren't that kind, and the watercolor shows, when I look at the catalogs, I think that they still are looking for a certain type of art. Really. And I've been a number of shows this past year, I've had a piece in a show in Philadelphia, I’ve had a show in Wisconsin. One out in California, a couple out in California, so a little bit here and there.

HG: That's huge. That's significant.

NS: That's good. Now for the shows like that, you just pay attention to the organizations and I joined some of them. Yeah. Because if you don't join, then you pay. Well, you only pay a little bit more, but a lot of them want you to join and pay the entry fee, and then you have to ship, you know, all that, but that's, yeah, you know, but it's makes you feel good.

HG: And if it gets it out there… I mean, those are the trade-offs.

NS: Yep. It's, it's good for your psyche. Yeah. I mean, I have had shows elsewhere, but it's harder when you get older. And with my, with my blind eye, you know, I'm limited about driving. Particularly I can't drive after dark because I can't read signs, you know. And so, I really can't do long distance drive and things like I used to. So, I have to change the way I do.

HG: It's nice to say you don't see you, you know, you're just saying you don't make art to sell. So, in some ways, you're not relying on the income.

NS: No, I'm not letting that be a problem.

HG: I think that might take off a lot of stress that other artists who are at a different place in their life and have to be worrying about.

NS: Yeah, you know, it takes a lot of stress off of you, perhaps, oh, yeah. I’m doing it because I have to.

HG: What are some things you can identify that could help you advance your career? You know, what do you need from the community at this point?

NS: I don't know that there is anything that if, if I wanted that, I wouldn't be able to just go out and pursue.

HG: That's one of the more pointed questions that I asked about what the Burchfield can provide, in some ways. And some of the things that have been identified in the past is A: more exhibitions, more gallery space more wherever that is in the city, money, the ones who are chasing if they need the money, yeah. But also, in some ways, more resources about how to catalog your work, how to, you know, get a grip on everything you've produced in your entire life, you know, and how also with younger artists, how that can be if you start having good policies and practices as a young artist, it can make everything a lot easier later on, you know.

NS: That's, that's very true. And the thing is now, with digital, you know, you can do so much more than that? What, what we were doing in the past? Of course, the slides you know, they don't always turn out well, or, or they fade. You know, I mean, it's hard, or they get out of order a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of work that I don't have any record of at all. Because of that. And, you know, I've tried to keep, keep a resume going. I mean, it's pages and pages and pages and pages. And it goes, really goes back.

HG: But that's going to be a very important document.

NS: That's just a resume. I mean, that's dates, though, but it isn't the work. You know, it's every show that I was in, every conference that I went to…

HG: Especially with from like an archival perspective, having a list of all the shows you've been in is huge because then that's the first point that a researcher can use to then contact those organizations and say, “Hi, I'd like a copy of your catalog from 1986. I'd like a copy of this catalog.” And then they get a copy, or they get photocopies of the catalogs, right. And then they see images of the work or they see the description. So having that first node of context, to then branch off from is super important. So, what you're doing with your resume is very good. So, don't stress yourself out too much about that because you've already set yourself up well, in some ways, yeah. But the easier you can make it for a researcher…

NS: But that’s on the computer, you know?

HG: And should all of the electrical power plants go out tomorrow…

NS: Maybe I should put that on a CD or maybe I should just make a paper copy.

HG: It’s both sides, actually. I was having a great conversation with Linda Orffeo a few weeks ago, Joe Orffeo’s wife, and she's done an incredible amount of work with cataloging his collections since he passed away. Because he was prolific, you know, all these things, right. And what she did is actually, I guess Edna Lindemann, our founding editor here, gave her a form that the Burchfield Art Center used for cataloguing art collection back in the day. And she used that as a basis to document every work in every series that he did. Now, it's all in these paper binders. It's just on paper. And so, she was like, “well, for insurance purposes. Maybe I'll digitize this by photograph each page.” But what the problem with that that's a great idea for insurance purposes. But the challenge with that is that you know, on each page it says title, a piece, the year, the series, who bought it, what did they buy it for, where they buy it, what's the media, all these different things, right? And because it's just an image of text, there's no way to search based on specific terms. So what you actually want to do is you want to make a spreadsheet, you want to type it all out and type out all the information because otherwise, how could you search for, you know, how can you know what each piece in a certain series sold for? How can you know when Joe was using one medium or another? All these different criteria you can search for once you have it as a text document. So, as you go forward, and if you do document your work, I would recommend putting it into a spreadsheet, but then also you can print those spreadsheets out, you know, yeah.

NS: Well see the problem… I mean, I used to keep file cards on all of my work, but, but, of course there's no picture of the work so who knows? I have a file of the names of everybody who ever bought my work, which was nice. But that's it. I don't know. That's a good thing. I don't know what they bought or list what they buy, or what they pay for it.

HG: But that's still a good place to start.

NS: You know, I have the date sometimes. Mostly I don't.

HG: Yeah, that's okay. My, my partner who is involved with infringement is also a violinist and a composer. And so, he composes these really weird new music pieces. And so, I've been encouraging him. He's going to be an archivist nightmare someday. He just has like, these piles and piles of tattered papers that all relate to each other, but like, nobody can understand it other than him. Yeah. And so I've been telling him “date, everything that you do, right what version it is, you know what came first, because otherwise this is all chaos, and nobody can make it out other than you!”

NS: And so those little things you can do, and those little things so easily at the time, but the thing is, we don’t.

HG: That is human error. It’s human error that is the most variable. So, here we are at the last question that I ask. Sometimes, this is the kind of like the first question in terms of the answer. The question is: what advice do you have for emerging artists? Some people have told me, “Who are these artists? I don’t know what they’re dealing with. I don’t know their unique situation. I don’t know them, so how can I tell them advice? If that question is too abstract, you could also think: what advice would you give yourself when you were starting your artist career, if you could? You know, what would you tell yourself now, knowing what you know, for when you were younger?

NS: I don’t know…it’s such a struggle. I can’t. I look at the young artists, who are just coming out and really making a splash, and I’m looking [to see] “What are you doing, and how are you doing it?” But that’s…I’m asking them, really.

HG: Okay.

NS: I couldn’t tell them what to do; they know.

HG: They’re figuring it out, too. That’s a beautiful answer in its own right. Well, Norine, here we are. Those were all of the questions. Do you have anything else you’d like to add before we wrap up the interview?

NS: I think we really covered a lot. It was great. I really enjoyed it.

HG: Oh, I’m so pleased! Well, thank you so much for coming in today, and sitting with me, and being open. That’s one of the most powerful parts of this project for me is putting away a lot of the bullshit and a lot of the niceties, and talking real about this art. So, thank you so much for talking with me today.

NS: Thank you.